Drivers are unhappy about stopping distances on bumps, tracks and slippery surfaces.
Dozens of owners of the current third generation Toyota Prius models have filled complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about the alleged brake failures they have experienced.
The Office of Defects Investigation has at least 33 complaints that we are aware of from Prius owners alleging a problem or safety defect, often about the design or performance of the braking system, which recharges the battery when the Prius decelerates.
Some owners describe this as unintended acceleration, but a review of the complaints by TheDetroitBureau.com leads me to think that this is an issue about how the braking system is calibrated. Whether this is a safety related defect is ultimately up to NHTSA to decide. The safety agency is authorized to order manufacturers to recall and repair vehicles when ODI investigations indicate that they contain serious safety defects in their design, construction, or performance.
For Toyota, it is another owner satisfaction or quality issue, at a minimum, coming from its most advanced technology vehicle at a time when Toyota is under attack for its handling of safety matters.
Braking performance issues?
In the case of the Prius brakes, it appears that the transition from regenerative braking to hydraulic braking is not transparent to drivers. Under certain conditions, the driver needs to press harder on the brake pedal to obtain the same stopping performance that the regenerative system working in conjunction with the hydraulic brakes initially provides. Drivers are clearly upset by longer than expected stopping distances when the antilock system shuts off the regenerative brakes.
Issues!
“What I, and others have been experiencing, is certainly not “runaway acceleration” or anything to do with pressing the gas pedal,” Robert Becker, an unhappy owner of a 2010 Prius, told TDB.
“But rather the loss of braking power or braking momentum when hitting a pothole, manhole cover, or the like. This requires the driver to press down again harder on the brakes to slow or stop the car,” Becker says.
Becker’s complaint is typical of others that ODI is tracking from owner communications on its Auto Safety Hotline. However, the existence of complaints does not mean the government will ultimately pursue the matter. The next steps would be to open up a preliminary investigation, which could be followed by an engineering analysis, which could lead to a recall. Neither have been initiated by NHTSA thus far.
Here is another Prius driver filing: “There have been several incidents in which my car seemed to surge forward while I was in the process of braking and hit a bump, railroad tracks or pothole. Initially, I convinced myself I must have been letting up on the brake when I hit the bump, but when this same thing happened three days ago on slippery, icy roads, I knew for 100% certain I had not let up on the brake. My car surged as I was slowly pulling up to a stop sign and gently braking. I came very close to hitting the car in front of me, had to push down on the brakes very hard, which activated the abs.”
I think what is going on is a combination of design/calibration choices and the compounding effects, forgive the pun, of the low rolling resistance tires, suspension settings and perhaps vehicle weight.
The Prius is arguably Toyota’s strongest image vehicle, dominating the hybrid segment as the best seller with more than 1 million in sales to date, and disproving other automakers’ contentions that Japanese companies only copied instead of innovating.
A Toyota spokesperson initially told TDB that he was unaware of the issue, but Toyota quickly supplied the following statement: “We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s) of our investigation and subsequent actions.”
NHTSA would only confirm that no recall or formal investigation is underway. The ODI complaints are a matter of public record, though.
Fatal for Pedestrians?
Nonetheless, an internal NHTSA memo says: “It appears that when you hit a bump, the regenerative braking (front wheels only) cuts out, and there is a short delay until the friction braking kicks in. This results in loss of braking, which is experienced as acceleration (due to sudden end of deceleration from braking). Net impact is still a loss of braking/ increase in stopping distance. This could be fatal for pedestrians — it happens when approaching stop lights if you hit a pothole.”
Toyota is in the midst of huge recalls involving floor mats and accelerator pedals (3.8 million vehicles) and rusty Tundra frames (+100,000), among others; and it faces lawsuits alleging the withholding of evidence in safety investigations, as well as new charges of unintended acceleration, and stalling in some of its most popular models.
Toyota’s worst year for recalls, ever
So far this year, Toyota has said it will recall a total of 4.8 million vehicles in the United States, four times more than in any previous year. It recalled 1.1 million vehicles in 2004.
It is difficult, though, to attribute the Toyota brand sales decline in the U.S. – off 24% year-to-date, about the same as industry results — to a damaged reputation, in spite of much self-serving media and analyst commentary claiming such.
However, the longer safety and customer satisfaction matters remain under media and government scrutiny, the more serious the potential consequences. The company announced last week the retirement of its long time group vice president of environmental and public affairs, which could be coincidental or not.
The dealership that sold Becker the car recommended that a Toyota field technician check on his complaint. The technician, according to Becker, acknowledged the condition, but stopped short of characterizing it as a safety issue.
While he initially was looking for a fix for the problem, Becker now wants a full refund of the purchase price of the vehicle, something the company is unwilling to do thus far.
“It makes me question Toyota’s commitment to customer service and safety,” Becker says.
Tags: Auto recalls, NHTSA, Prius brake safety, Prius safety problems, TheDetroitBureau.com., Toyota safety issues, auto industry, auto safety, ken zino, toyota recalls
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DGate; There is a interesting article today on MSN associated press about electronics and the Prius. Although it may be the authors opinion, I am in agreement,as you know, about electronics controlling throttle and brakes.
As we know; static, load glitches, and just software can make a circuit unreliable. When it is the only control over something as important as throttle and braking, I still am uncomfortable.
I cant see where eliminating one cable is going to reduce cost, make the car heavier, or save the planet by reducing fuel consumption. I CAN see how a servo motor can be miss-controlled and send you airborne.
As you can tell,I keep going back and forth on the subject. I’m not opposed to technology but i think somethings still need human control. Of course human control needs some reliability and that might be harder to get than reliable electronics !
My first car with an electronic drive by wire throttle was in 1999, a Smart. I do not recall any problems through the years with the Smart car. My second was a 2001 Vauxhall Agila UK spec which failed on my test ride home to show my wife.Luckily I lived only five miles from the dealer and was able to drive back rather slowly in the default mode of idle.
I assume you realize some or most modern large aircraft are “fully controlled” with fly by wire.
Of course one could argue that aircraft are rigorously maintained but I doubt that considering the turn-a-round times and different pilots and ground crews attending them.I’ve flown the atlantic many many times and noticed engine vibration, extra noisey hydraulic servo’s, and horrible brake noise which was not normal.Cars are simpler and ten years of this type of electronic control has proven it works.
If we are to have anti skid,anti wheel spin,anti this and anti that, the only way it can be accomplished is through the computer with overide control.
When EVs or the Volt are out there how do you think they will be controlled by a throttle cable? Accelerator linkage and cables have never been fool proof we just didn’t have the media coverage in the past.If people are so damned concerned over safety I would first suggest they get off their cell phones! Who knows maybe the signals are screwing up the electronics as on aircraft.
Len, DGate,
John Day’s article for us:
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/02/electronics-meltdown/
…gets into the issues of why electronic problems may be more apparent with some makers than others.
Intriguingly, some manufacturers, like BMW, have considered it critical to control development and integration of at least certain essential electronic systems precisely to ensure they can prevent the problems alleged against Toyota.
Am I convinced there are deadly electronic glitches on Toyota vehicles? Not yet, but it’s highly worrisome. And, as I keep saying, D, I do NOT believe that Toyota is just being spotlighted unfairly, right now.
BTW, even if we ignore for the moment the issue of unintended acceleration, Toyota has had electronic problems. They replaced controllers, a few years back on, if I recall, ’06 Matrix and Corolla models. And the replacement systems now seem to be behind the unexpected stalling problem those vehicles seem to have,
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Paul; Thanks for the article. I do have a question. You are obviously more in tune with the auto industry than most. Have you seen any other manufacturers having electronic issues that have been exposed courtesy of the media attention with Toyota? Sometimes it just takes all of the hype for people to come forward and say “yeah, my non-Toyota has done something similar but I thought it was me”.
It would be nice to know that the auto industry is as zealous in their pursuit of safety as is the airline industry, but I somehow doubt it. Price competition,yearly model changes,and consumer fickleness can’t give these guys a chance to think. The airline industry also has it’s competitive business climate but, when 300 people die in one collision it has much more impact than one or two people dieing in a car crash. Sad but true.
In certain regards I wish the auto industry would stop trying to compensate for poor driving habits with complicated electronic systems.It’s one thing for the driver to be an idiot but another thing for the car to be idiot. Most accidents don’t need the cars brains to prevent them.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor of air bags, crumple zones, emergency monitoring and all. Cars ARE a hell of a lot safer than they used to be but drivers seem dumber than ever!
Len you hit the nail on the head with that last remark. We may just have to accept that lowering the death rate is as good as we can expect.
Before all the electronics that try to compensate for our mistakes we had a dismal record for safety. The most powerful computer on the planet (our brain) couldn’t through its multiple linkages (arms and legs)operate the car without having accidents.Why should we then expect perfection of something we create?
Len you hit the nail on the head with that last remark. We may just have to accept that lowering the death rate is as good as we can expect.
Before all the electronics that try to compensate for our mistakes we had a dismal record for safety. The most powerful computer on the planet (our brain) couldn’t through its multiple linkages (arms and legs)operate the car without having accidents.Why should we then expect absolute perfection of something we create?
Mornin’ D; Ya want to go in business with me.I’m introducing the 2011 Darwin Sedan. No safety devices. No electronics. No nothing. Just an engine and four tires like it used to be. If you don’t drive safely you become the reason for the name!
Hi, Len,
It’s hard to find a manufacturer that hasn’t had some complaints against it for “unintended acceleration” issues, and for problems with electronics. But a number of efforts aimed at comparing the various companies keep coming up with the same conclusion: the numbers are heavily lopsided when it comes to complaint involving Toyota. A particularly intriguing study was conducted by Consumers Union and focused on the period before the whole acceleration issue exploded, if I recall, all of 2008. The results were damning, though, of course complaints are not the same as proof, I must stress,
It’s interesting that you suggest the industry should be as zealous as the airline industry in pursuing safety, then suggest the industry should be allowed to go back to the basic cars of the past, with little protection. The reality is that the latter won’t happen, but neither will the former. And, yes, cost is clearly an issue, both for the industry and for consumers. We all saw the document leaked from Toyota suggesting they celebrated beating back an earlier recall, saving $100 million in the process. Now, however, the cost will be mind-boggling, so making sure the potential cost of non-compliance is unacceptable has to be a part of any regulatory strategy. On the other hand, can you imagine if we required the triple-redundant systems on a commercial jet? Can you imagine a $250,000 Ford Focus or Nissan Versa?
Ironically, I am doing a story for a freelance client about the issue of distracted driving and one of the questions I raise is the concern that systems like Blind Spot Detection and radar Cruise/Auto Braking systems could actually lead to drivers being less involved than ever, leading to more, rather than less accidents. It’s significant to note that when Volvo developed City Safety, which is designed specifically to deal with distracted driving in low-speed urban situations, the maker purposely chose to ensure that the emergency braking process would be abrupt to the point that no one would consciously want to rely on the system except in emergencies.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Paul; Thanks for the reply. My later reply was intended as a joke referring to the elimination of bad drivers through, well… Anyway, I would just like to feel that,with my background, manufactures are truly thinking about these glitches. The airline industry proves their concern of faults by requiring triple redundancy.Those circuits monitor each other and may drop the odd input or output if necessary.As you say the cost is prohibitive but falling out of the sky is a little rougher than leaving the road.
I would like the automobile industry to think more about what is really necessary than how many bells a whistles they can add to impress the consumer.
Last note; when you are through with your next article let me know. It sounds interesting.
Maybe Toyota should adopt what Ettore Bugatti was alleged to have once said to a customer when he complained about the brakes, he replied, “I make my cars to go, not to stop.”
That’s funny but I know who’s not laughing!
When I started driving, the only distractions were the radio and the girl next to you. Now, between 20x the traffic and everything else,it’s hard to get from point a to b without an accident. I know I’ve done some stupid things driving in my life but when I started driving as part of my job, I weighed the extra time driving per day with the averages of an accident. Even at my age that improved my driving skills. I didn’t rely on the car to do it for me.
DGate, Bugatti was riding with a guy from California in a 2008 Prius yesterday. He supposedly got up to 90 mph, could not slow down with the brakes, called 911, a cruiser met up with him, he was spoken to or signaled to apply the emergency brake which brought him down to 50mph. He then shut the car off!!.
I can’t say what can happen to a person in a panic situation but, there is something definitely backwards with that sequence.It also seems like a long time frame.
Not to be cynical but, I hope this wasn’t staged in the middle of the Toyota hearings.
Regardless, listening to all of this still makes me a little queezy because my daughter owns a Prius.
Len we have nothing to fear but fear itself as they say.
Good mornin; Not much left here to post. We can just wait & see. I’m waiting for tbd’s article. Should be interesting. See you around. It’s been a pleasure talking with you. I’ll still be watching the site.
Good Morning: If anybody is still watching this site; My daughter just had the software update installed in her 2010 Prius. She tested the system at places she experienced the braking issue in the past. So far, so good. She said there was no braking lapse or loss of deceleration.
Obviously I am sleeping better knowing she has a little better control.
On another note; What do you think about information released Tuesday about that guy in California??????? I wasn’t aware that the computer records that much info. Makes the whole thing look a little suspicious.
Anyway….PROGRESS
Glad to hear your anxieties are over.
just goes’ to show after all the speculating of faulty brakes, regen braking anomalies, and the mysteries of the car it wasn’t hardware but down to software adjustment.
Don’t know what to make of the last incident other than he didn’t try to shut the system down or use nuetral but chose to waste valuable time phoning and conversing with a dispatcher.
Hi, Len,
Of course we still watch, as do others. Glad to hear your daughter is getting good results from the fix.
As to the guy in California, see TheDetroitBureau.com’s coverage…and same goes for a wonderful story our contributing editor, Mike Davis, wrote on the subject of black boxes:
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/03/the-case-for-%E2%80%9Cblack-box%E2%80%9D-electronic-data-recorders/
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Thanks Paul. I’m enjoying this website. I just need to learn my way around. I enjoyed the article that you recommended and the reader comments.
I hope the auto manufactures read your website. They may get some true insight as to the average persons opinions on their products.
We have, over the years, created a marketing strategy that puts a tremendous strain on the auto manufacturers. When you add rapid growth in technology added to “every year something new and exciting”, I think the strain may be beginning to show.
Electronics can provide us with incredible control and performance but, from a person that understands the gremlins associated with these complex systems, I think the industry needs to be driven towards standardized systems. Controls that can take over the vehicle need to be thoroughly tested and be of high quality components and assembly. If not……….
Back again: If anybody is still watching this site,After almost 2 months of my daughters Prius seeming to brake OK with the software update, It did it again. She got the feeling of acceleration while braking.
I’m not sure of the braking surface. I’ll get more details later. She will be returning to the Toyota dealer obviously disappointed.
I’ll let you know more later.
Len,
Please DO let us know if the problem continues.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Paul; Will do. May take a few days. Thanks for the reply.
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